The Mojo of Rule Breaking | A Discussion of Sorts

The Mojo of Rule Breaking | A Discussion of Sorts cover image
Thane Calder & Mark Dolynskyj explore which rules are fun to break and why.

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Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Welcome to Mojo Moments, I'm your host Thane Calder. You know, this podcast was invented, born, brought to life during the pandemic of 2020. And if you're not aware, there has been a pandemic caused by COVID-19 and we're living in it right now. And we felt. We needed a podcast that talks about mojo, because if there's any time that we've needed mojo it's right now.

And with me today is my smarter half, my wing mate, my buddy, Mark Dolynskyj,

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

What's up?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yes

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yo

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

And I pronounce his name properly after five years. Anyway, so in season two, we've added into our little podcast mix. Where we normally talk with people and have conversations, our Mojo masters, we've added in this idea of mojo riffs and this is just where Mark and I riff on a Mojo topic. The other day we chatted about the month of November. Yeah. That month. That is very anti-mojo, but we found a little mojo in there, hey Mark?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

We did.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Anyway. Someone may ask, I know we asked ourselves: whoever talks about November on a podcast?

Well, we did, and that's beauty of podcasting is you can break the rules. And in fact, that's our theme today. That's what we're going to riff about. Breaking rules.

So Mark, before we jump into breaking the rules, I do need to know how's your mojo?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It's pretty good today.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Pourquoi?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

My dog came back from the vet. He can now walk again, which was great. He had a little leg thing. Now he's better. We can go for walks again and he's a big boost to my mojo, wandering the streets here in Montreal.

It's just fun. I guess I get to go out and get to listen to some podcasts, to walk around with my dog in the dead of night. And it's fun., I missed my mojo. I haven't been doing that for the past six weeks.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Would you say your mojo was down? In that period?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It was definitely down. November was very tough. And then our little assignment to find the mojo of November was even harder because my mojo was already sort of in the pits, but today's episode is pretty good.

I'm excited to talk about rule-breaking

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Little side note. I think our next riff needs to be on the mojo pets. Cause obviously there's a lot in your life and now my life now that we have a cat named Panda, but let's talk about breaking rules dude.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Absolutely.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Do you break rules?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It depends on which rules you're talking about.

And, this is one of those things that I was sort of considering myself when we sort of thought about doing this topic is what type of rules there are, and sort of like what we're actually talking about. Cause like, if you want to think about rules in general, in a democratic and open society, there's sort of this generalized social contract, about what actions are and are not appropriate.

You know, there's two basic forms of rules. Those that are explicit. And those that are implicit. So laws and regulations would be explicit, sort of social etiquette would be implicit rules. And without them as generally chaos, but at the same time, breaking rules A) is kind of fun sometimes when you know you're doing it, but then there's also this idea of breaking with convention or breaking sort of a best practice, which is also another sort of rules socially mandated.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

You remember, I started this all  saying my smarter half. Well, we've just confirmed that. I was just like, you know, what rules do you break? And you're like social contract, rules and all these different types of rules. I hadn't actually broken it down like that. So, tell me what type of rule have you broken that you can share?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

One of my favorites to do that's a general rule is I like that, it sort of goes back to walking my dog is... I find that, especially in the winter, when you're walking your dog, it's great to drink a beer in the streets while walking the dog, just generally not allowed, not allowed to drink an open vessel alcoholic beverage in the street, but I find that incredibly enjoyable, especially after a fresh fallen snow, I'm wandering around and listening to something in my headphones.

Drinking a little beer, the dog walking around the street. It's so much fun.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

This image is so forged in my head forever. And what I'm really wondering is the whole notion, you know, for those of you in our listenership, around the world, around the planet, when it's frozen, there's this thing we all do up here in Canada. When we're kids, we put our tongues. If you put your tongue on something metal. It gets stuck. Like it really does. It gets stuck. It gets frozen on the metal and you risk, you know, ripping the skin off the top of your tongue. So I'm picturing you with your can of beer. I'm assuming it's a can or is it a bottle?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It's a can! Absolutely it's a can.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

A frozen can stuck to your mouth. So how does, I guess it works, so I don't know, like,

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Well it's not frozen when it starts, that's the thing, like, you can take it from your own fridge. And walk out with it. And it was actually a sort of fun habit that started about five  years ago. My partner and I went on a trip to Barcelona. And it was over the course of my birthday. So it was in May. And one of the things we used to do is just grab beers from one of their convenience stores. And at night, once you leave a bar, we would just grab some beers and then walk back to our Airbnb where we were staying, we're just drinking in the streets.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

But there you're not breaking rules.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Exactly, there it's a bit more socially acceptable, so you're not breaking necessarily the social contract, you're joining it and you're taking part in it. Whereas here, generally speaking frowned upon. But that's something I definitely do enjoy breaking, that rule.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

When I was in India, a thousand years ago when I was a... I did a gap year between high school and university. I spent almost a year there. Anyway, a buddy of mine named VK lived in Southern India. He was actually quite well off. Not like the super rich, but you know, upper middle class. His parents lived, they had an apartment on the first floor of the rented house. They lived on the second floor and then his room was on the rooftop. It was a room. He had his own space and then he had like this open rooftop deck and VK is like. He'd been to Europe before on a trip and he really likes steak. He was like, dude, do you want to go to the market? And get some steaks and we'll have like this little, oven-y thing on the roof, then yeah, we'll cook them up there.

I'm like, and you got to understand his mom was extreme vegetarian, Southern India is more vegetarian and it was some holiday or a fasting. I was like, man, no way, man. Your mom already hates me. She called me the white devil. Well, let me just stay on the story here. So we I'm late anyway. We can't get, and he says, yeah we'll go to the Christian part of the market and then we'll get some steaks.

Yeah, the Christian part. Hey this...

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

So they sent you, the white devil...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I was like, I was uncomfortable. I wasn't really into this, you know, but he really wanted to have a steak. So we got steaks. We got beer, by the way no alcohol in his house. And here we are on the roof, actually doing a wonderful barbecue. You know with the waffling smells of steak coming off the roof and our beer and he ate, but he had this little cage in, or like one of those cage doors.

It was a security thing in their house and he locked it. So his mom wouldn't come up and catch us. Anyway, so that's that, that was breaking rules, but I wasn't, I think he was more into, I was like a little more, I felt I was a guest in his house. Like I shouldn't, you know, she, it just reaffirmed her thoughts on me.

Yeah. Anyway,

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, this Western interloper showing up, corrupting her son, making him drink beer and eat steaks.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I know I'm breaking a rule. And I know that should a police officer stop me, I could get in some shit. I know that going in. Do I think it's a big deal? No. Am I harming anyone? No. Am I minding my own goddamn business. Yes. So I know I'm breaking a rule.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I know I'm breaking a rule. And I know that should a police officer stop me, I could get in some shit. I know that going in. Do I think it's a big deal? No. Am I harming anyone? No. Am I minding my own goddamn business. Yes. So I know I'm breaking a rule.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I think it's important when we talk about, you know, what are the rules of breaking rules, but I feel you've hit a couple in there. You know, you're not harming anyone.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I'm not harming anyone. There's no risk of danger. Yeah. I'm not a drunken lout wandering around with a vicious animal attacking people...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

According to you...

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I might be a lout, but I'm not a vicious one.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah and you're willing to live with the consequences if you were caught in the grand scheme. So, for all of you considering to break rules for the first time, remember the lessons there from Mark, you know.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Be willing to accept the consequences of your actions

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

And you're not hurting anyone.

So the other day, when we were talking about looking at what do we want to riff on? I went for a jog, I think, going to the office, which is not against the law right now. And from the office I go for runs on Mount Royal here in Montreal. And when I was coming back, I was running up the street here in Montreal, like a lot of cities, a lot of one way streets, but where are our offices downtown, as you know, Mark, but you haven't been here since the beginning of COVID or maybe once.

Yeah, been like four months since I've been there. Anyway, there's still one-way streets. I realized one of the things I miss, since the pandemic, is there's no traffic, so I don't need to do this, but normally to get to the office, what I do is I drive up, it's a side street. We're not talking fifth Avenue here. I'd drive up the side street against the one way traffic. Well, there's barely ever traffic now there's none. So, there's no use me doing it. It doesn't have the same mojo, but when I do it, I get a little buzz off the 'I've cut a corner. I've gained some efficiency. I feel self justified because otherwise I literally have to drive another five minute radius around.

So I'm doing something good for the environment, right? Little less carbon into the air until I get that electric car. And there we go. And that to me is, there are consequences for driving up a one way street the wrong way. But I feel I've prepared already my pitch to the cops if ever that happens.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Okay, what is it?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I didn't know. And I was so confused. I was so lost and then I was like, I was already started. I had to follow through on it.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Now it's interesting that you say that you almost feel justified  in your ability to cut that corner. Cause I was looking through the interwebs and I found a paper in the Social, Psychological and Personality Science Journal from 2011.

That's interesting because the article is called, Breaking the Rules to Rise to Power: How Norm Violators Gained Power in the Eyes of Others. And what they concluded in this article is, through a series of tests, the violation of norms signals power to others who are watching it. So they ran a bunch of tests where they watched people do a similar act, but one person violates a rule and the other one doesn't. What they found in the end was norm violators are perceived as having the capacity to act as they please, which fuels a perception of power, which is then kind of what they posit in this. Anyways, it kind of creates this little loop. So the power leads to this behavioral disinhibition.

So. What they're saying is that the powerful, more likely to violate those norms, which in turn, lets other people perceive them as powerful, which in turn, lets them do it again. And it's this sort of spinning wheel loop of breaking rules and having it be accepted, which take into its logical and most recent extreme, you would have to say is basically the American political system at the moment because you have someone who has broken so many rules.

Which to so many people, showcases power, which has been accepted and sort of tolerated, which then precipitated more and even bigger sort of lies and rule-breaking and whatnot.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

It's interesting. You riff on that and I like where you're going on that but, it's interesting in this period, and maybe it's why subconsciously of us talking about breaking rules is that, you know, we've been watching US politics, the election. Everyone's blaming each other for cheating and lying and breaking rules. We know there's one person definitely breaking the rules here.

I think we're also living it in our home lives During the pandemic, depending on where you live, there's rules that are being brought in that we haven't had before, likenyou can't have more than X number of people to your house or you know, maximum 10 or now it's whatever the rule is now.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Where you have to wear a mask, where you don't.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah, where you wear a mask and where you don't and then you have these tensions that, you know, you have people going on these massive parades of like, and feeling empowered by saying down with masks, down with masks, you know, and then you have others, like wear a mask, wear a mask!

My wife's cousin, his mother passed away in France and he couldn't go, because of everything's going on. And he decided to have a little gathering, we're in the countryside at his place last weekend around the fire, we're 12 of us, to toast his mother. And, just as a mini kind of Memorial. Technically we're breaking the rules.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

No, it's fascinating because we've had all of these new rules and regulations brought in and all of these rules are part of, as I was sort of saying, that social contract. So everyone has to sort of agree to these rules. And what's been interesting over 2020, is that we've seen so many people, you know, negotiate those rules.

So whether or not you wear a mask and where you do it and how you know that one is sort of the easy one. But you know, when you get into these situations where you want to have social gatherings, And why, like, it's not like you were having a 400 person party and everyone was just showing up. So, you know,

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

No, it wasn't like that AirBnb story rental

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

No exactly, it wasn't a wedding where you're blatantly flaunting the rules. It was, you know, a Memorial service with

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Outside in the rain

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

With a close group of people. So you're negotiating that rule amongst your friends, and you're all entering into that knowingly and willingly, even though it contradicts a societal rule that has been newly introduced. And that's why I think some of these are so hard for people to get their heads around.

It's new. It's not part of their habit. It's not part of the way that they've structured their lives, their day. All of our lives have obviously been disrupted. We all get that. That's not news, but the incorporation of all these different rules. is really hard on people.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So like a lot of people I've spoken to " I don't know if the governments made new... or I don't understand them all". You made me realize, I think they understand they're pretty clear. Occasionally it's a little fuzzy. I think they're clear. I think where they're having some sort of challenge is that they're being challenged probably for the first time to have to negotiate to what degree do they want to comply or not?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, absolutely.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Whereas before they accept all the rules.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Exactly. What are the major rules that have changed within the past 10 years?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

But you get my point here. I think, realizing that where people are freaking out, "I don't understand". I think they understand, it's quite clear, they just can't, they're processing how they navigate that.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah. And there's a lot of people that you meet? When do you meet? How and where do you meet? That's all a nuance to a rule that they're trying to learn and establish into their sort of day to day habit and structure. And that's difficult because we haven't had lots of time to grow up or take in this new rule.

Like what are the major rule changes of the past 10 years, maybe indoor smoking laws.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Not even, it's been longer.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah. Before that you had maybe, it was the new seatbelt regulations, like something that's kind of...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Not even.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It's something that has changed to a daily habit.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah. So this is a good point. I'm trying to think of a rule in the last 10 years, you know, short of some weird governor, you know, parliamentary thing.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Like not a change of regulation, but like a major rule that has changed. There are very, very few.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

 I can name one, but maybe it'll come to me.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Exactly. There was a big one when the smoking regulations changed,

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

But that's like 20 years ago, no?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Exactly. To my recollection. I mean, I'm only 30, but whatever I am 32, 33, I can't remember. That's the one that I can remember changing

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Because you were smoking when you were 10 or 12? And you're like, this is such a pain.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I remember growing up in Toronto. Restaurants were changing. Like when we would go out to eat as a family, there'd be sections that were non-smoking and smoking. And then you had restaurants changed where they had designated smoking areas, which were like walled off gas chambers, where people would go into smoke. And it was really sad to watch those people in there.

And then it was just straight up, no smoking indoors. That's the only major change to a person's day to day habit based on a law, based on a rule, based on a socially, somewhat agreed upon major legislative change that I've experienced. And then we had this year where it's like, you can't see people, you can't go places. You have to dress a certain way to go into certain areas.

These are major things that people have had to negotiate.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

And I would say that I know we fell into this topic, and we should sound like we don't really thought this through kind of serendi-, you know, we just kind of fell in there.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Serendipitously

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah. Thank you. Smarter half. But it's actually very timely because I hadn't thought about the extent that we have not introduced as far as we can recall real rule changes in our social lives for a very long time.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

15 to 20 years. Right?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

And then we've had in the last six, eight months, we've had a whole bunch of roll up.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I think what people find really difficult is when there's slight changes, because initially it was like, even just last week, the changes like, if you're going to quarantine, you can quarantine for seven days, but then that might have nuance. It's seven days. If you're non-symptomatic with COVID versus 14 days, if you are symptomatic and when and where you do those quarantines based on what you've done and who you've met. There's so many different variations. That's really difficult for people to stay on top of.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

But we're here talking about breaking rules, but of course we have to talk about rules. So we had to talk about what rules in our lives. I think earlier on, we talked about this, but I want to come back to, you know, there are rule breaking things that give us mojo, right? That test our limits. So you're not the only smarty pants around here. As T.S. Eliot once said, "only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.."

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

That's a very good quote. I'll raise you a quote

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Oh you have a quote?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

By Pablo Picasso.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Oh shit!

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

There's a quote by Pablo Picasso and it goes, "learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist", which is pretty cool. It's a good phrase, but it also matches one of our agency's rules, one of our major beliefs. I think it's number one in our beliefs book, which is break stupid rules.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah, it is number one. We have at CloudRaker, we have this 11 beliefs book that's been around for 15 years that essentially captures the mojo of the agency, you know, kind of the guiding principles of things that matter  The rules of the agency, and the first rule in the belief book is break stupid rules. So it's kind of our thing.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Because I think there's part of that, especially in what we do, which is, you know, we do many things as a sort of agency, especially marketing all of those things we try and, you know, for our brands, Cut through the clutter. And one of the ways that's often used to do that is you try and break with a convention, right? So you're trying to break sort of a generally accepted way of behaving to stand out from the crowd. Which is great because, you know, one of the things we used to have a UX guy who used to say he hates best practices, because best practices are just a set of guidelines that sort of everyone has agreed upon as being sort of generically this is the way you do it. But then you're just, everything you do is kind of a me too product or a me too website or whatever, like everyone's website has a hamburger on the top, right. You know, a hamburger sack or whatever, we call them these days. So breaking stupid rules just means don't do something just because it's the way people do it.

You know, always have a reason and a thought behind it. And that rule for us, I've always interpreted. It's like, don't, don't just accept something as being the way it is, because that's the way it is. Always assess it each time you do it based on the need of that time.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So do you know what the number one goal Holy grail of a marketer is to achieve for their product or brand?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Not piss off the general public?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

No. No, that's just, that's a thing you do. The thing, the Holy grail. What do you aspire to achieve most. As a company, as a brand, for your marketing,

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

What is it Thane?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Word of mouth! So I read a study, a deep study, that really started picking apart. Like, what are the triggers, drivers? What makes word of mouth happen? And it's distilled down to two major factors that generate the most, most powerful word of mouth. And the first one is you've broken some rules. You stand out you're different. So to your point, and the second is you actually add utility and usefulness in someone's life.

So you need that power differentiation. You've broken some convention. You stand out from the crap and then you're making people's lives better.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, I think that was one of the reasons why, you know, in 2018, during the Super Bowl, the, this is a Tide ad was so successful because it flipped sort of the mechanic on its head.

It said basically any ad because the clothes are so clean, could be a Tide ad. So they created those fake ads for different companies that ended up just saying : "but this is a tide ad" and then they, insert the tide pods, that's cause you you're leading them down a certain way that they were expecting a certain thing and then you flipped it on them and you flipped it fundamentally at its core, which was kind of interesting.

So that stood out, especially not only just the way they did it, how they structured it throughout the game and all the different things. But the core idea in itself broke a certain...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Standards and rules. So the other type of rules that are worth, you know, reason why you want to break rules is to be, and I'm going to put this word in: a fire starter.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

A twisted Firestarter, as Prodigy would say

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I just think, you know, and so to your point earlier that maybe work can go bad, you know, your research showing that sometimes power is seeing someone jumping in and breaking that rule. You got a sense of, it gets a momentum, it gets things going. And I think there's a lot of truth around that. You know, it's sort of like, there's this famous study of the monkey and the poll. Have you heard this study? I might've brought this up in another podcast.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah tell everybody your monkey in the pool story.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So a famous study, 1960s, cause all the crazy pain and yes, they put a monkey in a room and with a pole top of the pole, bananas and monkey goes to climb up and they have an electric shock unit on that pole, which shocks the monkey. The monkey is like "Ah" comes down, freaks out, tries it again and gets shocked again like, okay. That pole equals pain. So they introduced monkey number two into the room. And of course, you know, they had their little moment of social checking each other out and then monkey number two, looks up and goes: Man, there's bananas there. Starts climbing up. There's no shock, but monkey number one pulls down monkey number two and does all squeaky thing, you know. Hey, you can't do that.

They introduce monkey number three, take out monkey number one. They introduce monkey. number three, comes in. Same thing, checks it out, the banana. Starts climbing. Monkey. Number two, pulls down monkey number three. So, these are like these sort of self-imposed rules that we put around ourselves. The boundaries of barriers, just something to be said about that.

Sometimes you got to, for your own limits, to be pushing those boundaries, because we might not even realize the boundaries we put on ourselves. So what do you think about that? Smarty pants?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I like that this podcast has become: your thing, my thing, let's see who wins. But before this podcast, It's sort of a running joke, I have a thing.

I've always got a thing, but we sort of, back to our Mojo Moments podcast with Amy Black and we had the sort of running joke about Jordan Peterson and his whole thing. But, I've been reading his book 12 Rules for Life. And onto your subject of this study, he talks about, one of his big things is he's studied sort of totalitarian regimes and the darkness of humanity and all that sort of stuff.

That's the background. It is some he's researched, but he tells...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Light reading.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

It's very light reading before bed, I have to say. And he talks about this. He's like, there's  a Soviet joke. And the joke goes that Satan's giving a tour to an American of hell and he shows up to the first cauldron and there are souls inside, and as they start trying to climb their way out of this cauldron boiling pit of misery, that there are these little devils around the ring. And as soon as one tries to come out, the devil pokes them back in and it's like, Oh, what's that? Well, this is where we keep the English men, you know, as soon as they try and get out, we have to put them back in.

They keep going. It's a slightly larger pot. This time, there are people with Berets and striped shirts, and they're all trying to climb out of this bubbling cauldron of misery. And there are these little devils on the ring and they poke the French men to go back in. Oh, what's this, the French man, as soon as they try and get out, we have these little devils to put them back in.

Goes to the third pot, very large, very big, all the souls inside, they're all miserable and they're all trying to climb out. But as soon as they start climbing out and they're about to get to the ring, they fall back in, but there are no devils around this edge. And so the American turns to Satan and says, well, what's this one? He says, Oh, this is, this is where we keep the Russians. As soon as one of them tries to come out, the people, the other souls inside, pull them back down. So it's back to your monkey thing.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Do you think that's still true today or is that a Soviet story?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I think it was more of a totalitarian Stalinism, USSR kind of vibe. But there is an element of that.

Like there are people who do try and keep everybody back down.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I think that's, you know, to the point of being that Firestarter occasionally you got to see someone climb out of that cauldron, you know, and go, Oh yeah. There's other ways of doing things. I mean it's a cliche, but the invention of rugby.

The game of rugby was some dude who was bored, playing soccer or football from whatever jurisdiction you're from, grab the ball and start running, going. I don't know, I mean, it was a boring day of, I don't know, the soccer ball wasn't moving around. He just grabbed it and ran

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Or he wasn't very good at kicking.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So, there you go, you know?  So here's another thing that I came across recently and I want to get your thoughts on this. Okay. Cause of my kids, with homeschooling these days, a lot of homework, way more than I think they should have during this COVID period. And you know, my daughter, hopefully no teachers are listening.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Hopefully they are to be honest, Thane. Hopefully you're enjoying Mojo Moments.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Oh my God. Anyway, she has a lot of work going on and we just feel, you know, in this period, Yeah, she doesn't have any social interactions, or not like before, there's no team sports, not a lot of outlets and the homework's being piled on.

And frankly, she had to do, she had to write this little mini English lit. Like do the intro of this, the theme of this story and the conclusion don't do the middle, but still, it was like, Oh my gosh, overwhelmed, so I wrote it for her. And I don't know how I feel, like again, I went through this self-justified, like I gave you my whole preamble here. Right? I'm still curious to know what grade I'm going to get on it. But,  Grade nine English see how... Yeah, and....

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

What was the book?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

It's actually a short story. .It's a brilliant little short story called the Scarlet.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Is it T. S. Eliot?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

No, no you're trying to catch me for cheating on just doing my homework for this podcast.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

With your child's homework...

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

It's Scarlet abyss. Great little story, James Hurst. Never heard of it until I read it. And thank you for having read it, English teacher, but the reason why I say this is, I've been listening to Matthew McConaughey's book. Cause I don't read anymore I'm at that age. Right? Just do audio books. Yeah.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Is it Matthew McConaughey reading his own book?

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah. So it's good. Like, he's an actor, so hopefully he does a good job. Anyway, he talks about this, his parents are crazy and he keeps saying  they are married three times, divorced twice to themselves. His mom had a bit of this edge to her and really thought he was like, Genius.

Like a lot of parents think their kids are perfect. Anyway, he was supposed to do a poetry competition and you could win money and he won the Texan poetry competition for grade six, I think it was. And he's trying to write these things. Hey mom, what do you think, she's like, no, no, no, no. Write this one. And she has out of a book, a poem, and he's like, you mean, you want me to get inspired by that?

No, no, no, no. Just write that. He's like, but I can't mom, that's someone else's and she goes, just write it. So, he submitted this poem, won and she had no scruples. She said, that's my boy. Anyway, it's, it's great storytelling, but I don't feel I went that far with my daughter's homework, but, you know, I don't know.

I think the way in the book, have you read it? You don't, are you going to read it? I don't think you'll like the end

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

No, you can spoil the ending for me.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So I get a sense from it that he knew it was wrong, but what it gave him in that case, is that his mom would be willing to do anything for him to succeed. Which gave him permission in a way to do anything, to succeed.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

I mean, there's one thing that we often say sort of around the office. It's, to me anyways, a sort of 12th belief that's sort of written into the margins of the book, of our CloudRaker belief's book. And it's easier to ask forgiveness than it is to get permission kind of thing. Like we sort of, we sort of like, it's an unwritten rule.

It's sort of a vibe that we go for at the moment. But one of the things I realized, you know, thinking about this rule breaking, you know, and that sort of phrase popped in my head. And the difference between the two, between begging for forgiveness and asking for permission is: if you do that, you act first.

And that's something that you always yell at us, like get doing, do stuff. Make things happen, make it happen, just do something. And if you ask for permission, you're waiting to start. You need to be given approval to start, which means being, you know, within a certain rule structure and you're just like, do it, do something and see what happens. Like this podcast, who knows if anyone's going to listen to it, we kind of just said like, let's try it. See what happens. Should it be shorter? Should it be longer? I don't know, maybe lots of people will say, yeah, it should be a lot shorter, but we're trying something, we're trying something and, you know, sorry if you don't like it, but you know, we're just trying it out.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

But one thing that's implicit in the way you're saying there, about you know, don't ask permission, beg for forgiveness, there is a certain inbuilt built-in accountability. There is an expectation of you're using your brains a little to make a call on something, you know, that you're given the responsibility to not do something stupid. Yeah,  but just go. Yeah. And I find that whole notion is more empowering, you know?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

 Absolutely.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

What do you want in any organization, business or nonprofit, whatever, is you want people to have initiative and who are pushing and going, not waiting to be told what to do or ask to do things.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Make things happen.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

So you'd said it earlier, cause maybe we do do these a bit long, although we're not like that other dude, I'm not going to name him. And he does a four hour podcast.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Doesn't need any more promotion.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah. And he's only getting a hundred million bucks for it, but we are getting famous too my friend. I heard Dax Shephard wants to be on our show. I'm saying that, I mean, he's welcome anytime.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

You're manifesting, that's nice. I like that. Yeah.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

That's one thing. So, there's another type of rule breaking when it makes kind, where you have permission to do it, it makes sense. Okay. Even though we're saying, don't ask for permission, which is for greater purpose, you know,, when something really lines up with your values, like now you can debate what are the right values, but you know, when, if someone says here, shoot this person, you're like, no, I'm not doing that. You know, like it's against my values. That's a very simplistic dumbed down version of it. What's interesting though. I did my research on this too, cause I was like, you know, people in time and history who have broken rules for greater purpose and good.

And in this year, you know, Black Lives Matter re-emerged like it does way too often as a very important issue in our society, is Rosa parks. Rosa parks is probably known as one of the most famous heroes known for breaking the rule, sitting in the front of the bus in Montgomery, Alabama.

Okay. And she refused to go in the back. What's interesting about that is she wasn't breaking a rule. In fact, the day she sat in the front of the bus was the day that segregation laws had been broken, put away or whatever you call that. So, it was in her totally within her rights on that day to sit in the front of the bus. So she was just applying her rights. She was actually  following the rules, if anyone was breaking.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, but she was breaking sort of like the social habit of everybody else on the bus.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

True, true that, and that's where the bus driver's like, no you gotta, you can't do that. And we know the rest of the story.

So, in fact, the first woman, at least that we have in record, who broke the rules in, I think there's also an Alabama was Claudette Colvin, 15 year old woman who did refuse to give up her seat. And got arrested and we don't know about her and that's a whole, that's a whole other topic. There's a great NPR documentary on that.

But, it's interesting. There is this whole notion of, you know, rightful breaking rules, but the one that's pretty iconic up there, Rosa Parks was she wasn't to your point, she was breaking more of a social convention rather than breaking the actual law at that point

Here in Canada, we have our own story, which is now on the $10 bill.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Right. And that's Viola Desmond. It's certainly something I had to learn a couple of years ago. At some point I was part of the team writing a book for the Beaverton on Canadian history. So we're looking at these different stories and trying to find things that were underrepresented in the sort of in the historical record.

And one of these was on Viola Desmond and in 1946 in Nova Scotia, she went to a white only area of a theater. She bought a ticket, she sat in the white only area, and then she. We know it was kicked out.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

What year was this?. Sorry, say that again?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

1946.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

God damn, yeah. Okay.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, she was convicted for a minor tax violation for the 1 cent tax difference between the seat she'd paid for and the seat that she used. And it was a colored section or white section. She sat in the white section, which is kind of crazy. In 2010, she was given a pardon, the first to be granted in Canada, a posthumous pardon. Which is kind of crazy. So that's on our $10 bill for all of those people with their purple money.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I think we'd done the round. I don't know, like seriously, we're just going to put a little qualifier on this for all the youths out there, you know, break rules but break them intelligently.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah. Know why you're breaking a rule. If you're going to break a rule.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yeah

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

and be ready

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

for the consequences. And I think that's a great mojo topic.

And on that note, buddy, What rule are you going to break tonight, cause it's snowing out. Is your dog ready?

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

Yeah, my dog's ready. I don't think there's enough snow. It's quiet enough for me to go prowling the streets with my dog and my can of beer.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

I love that one.

Okay. Thank you, Mark. And I call that a wrap.

Um, this is a big, thank you to the whole team here at CloudRaker to all the team that makes this happen. Chris Valin. You're still rocking us out.

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

And for all of those who want to listen to Clickbait & Switch, check that out wherever you get your podcasts. Marketing podcasts, short, under 15 minutes, gives you what you need to know in a week. Check it out!

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

And if you want more deep thinking podcasts, keep listening to Mojo Moments and share it to the world for a good 50 minutes or more of soul-defining mojo

Mark Dolynskyj
Mark Dolynskyj

And enlightening content.

Thane Calder
Thane Calder

Yes. Okay. That's a wrap. Thank you. Bye.

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The Mojo of Listening | Skye Marok, Vent Over Tea

Thane Calder & Mark Dolynskyj are joined by fellow Raker Skye Marok, who helps run the active listening volunteer network at Vent Over Tea.
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